Overriding arrow keys in the Object Manager?

Cairyn

Hello again;

recently, I was trying to change some key assignments for the Object Manager (manually in the GUI), and I found that it is not possible to override/delete the default bindings for the cursor/arrow keys. They don't appear in the Customize Command list, and if I try to assign anything to an arrow key, it is ignored in the OM. Moreover, even if I use an ALT qualifier in my (global) arrow shortcut, it's not working in the OM - despite the OM not using ALT shortcuts with the arrow keys for a different functionality. Keys on the NumPad in cursor mode can't be reassigned either. I guess the arrow keys are just hardcoded in the OM.

Question 1: Can we reassign the arrow/cursor keys in the OM at all? (And if yes, how? I'd be content with a manual method... but as this didn't work, I'm happy about a scripting solution as well.)

I would try AddShortcut but I failed in finding out the ID of the Object Manager to fill in the SHORTCUT_ADDRESS entry in the BaseContainer. I suppose I could find out from the .res file of the Customize Command window (cycle values for the "Restrict to" gadget) but I didn't find that either. It doesn't seem as if there is a constant list for the managers to use?

Question 2: What are the possible values for the SHORTCUT_ADDRESS entry to use in AddShortcut? (0 is obviously (none)... but the rest?)

Question 3: Is there a list somewhere for the .res files belonging to concrete dialogs/managers/descriptions, by English dialog titles perhaps? There are by now hundreds if not thousands of .res files, and I can't easily identify them any more...

And while we're at AddShortcut:

Question 4: What are the proper values for the (dynamic) ShortcutKey entries? (Apart from the limited subset under KEY_xxx constants.) After experimenting, it seems to me that they are ASCII/LATIN1 values ("ß" resolves to 223), so not UTF-8 cast to LONG or something. How does this work with a Greek or Russian keyboard?

Thanks for having a look!

(Just FYI in the Python docs:
QUALIFIER_ALT and QUALIFIER_NONE are missing from the Python docs, although they are actually defined.
SHORTCUT_OPTIONMODE is also missing from the Python docs, although it is defined.)

(And I am missing the functions
FindShortcutsFromID
FindShortcuts
CheckCommandShortcut
in the Python API. I guess they didn't make the cut at all...)

Manuel

Hi,

1- 2
arrows are hardcoded in the treefunctions of the object manager so you can't change them.

SHORTCUT_ADDRESS --> Manager ID, registered with RegisterManagerInformation(), or 0 for global shortcuts.
you can retrieve all the plugins that are type of PLUGINTYPE_MANAGERINFORMATION with this code:
That's how the "restrict to" dropbox is defined. And no, it's a dynamic list.

import c4d
from c4d import gui



def main():
    pluginList = c4d.plugins.FilterPluginList(c4d.PLUGINTYPE_MANAGERINFORMATION, True)

    for plugin in pluginList:
        print (plugin, plugin.GetID())

# Execute main()
if __name__=='__main__':
    main()

3 - none that i know.
4 - That's the ascii value of the letter corresponding to the key.
On English keyboard the 9 (alpha pad) is 57, in the french keyboard this key is assigned to ç that is 199. and yes "ß" resolves to 223. For russian it should be something else. You can for sure create a plugin to get the ascii value of the key pressed and install other keyboard language on your system. I will ask to our tech team if there's a function to translate that.

Thanks a lot for the documentation issue, i will have a look tomorrow and answer about the function missing.

Cheers,
Manuel

Cairyn

@m_magalhaes Thank you! So, no wonder I'm not finding constants for that

Pity about the arrow keys, I wish they were redefinable. That must be an ancient limitation, as 99% of functions can be reassigned.

Point 4) is interesting, I suppose there is some 8 bit keymap for Russian and Greek. Makes me think about CJK ideograms, but sadly I don't know enough about Asian I18N to guess whether it's relevant

Manuel

Hi,

And i forgot to point you to this thread about how to define a shortcut.

Cheers,
Manuel

Cairyn

@m_magalhaes Thanks, I found that thread while researching, but as the original issue is the hardcoding of keys in the OM, it didn't solve the problem... I suppose Maxon will not swap the hardcoded keys for proper shortcut assignments controllable through the Customize Commands window, so I have to live with the limitation

Manuel

hi,

Why in the first place you want to re-assign the arrow keys?

Cheers,
Manuel

Cairyn

TL;DR I want to assign a set of scripts that allow me a C4D-globally consistent set of functionalities to "walk the tree".

Long version:

This has to do with the whole arrow key usability concept. These are bound to the OM, and ONLY to the OM, because they use the current OM's specific settings: they skip objects that are not visible (possibly by layer), and skip child trees that are folded (which is a setting valid only for this specific OM as the folding can be different for each open OM).

Now, if you concentrate only on the OM this makes even sense, for the most part: the tree structure is treated as a linearized array of visible objects so moving the "cursor" (a single selection) up and down by arrow key just behaves like in a text: next line, previous line, regardless of the tree depth structure. So if you have a child tree open, the down arrow will take you not to the hierarchically next object but to the child.

Now that is not yet an issue. It makes sense in the context of a single OM if you take into account that the "cursor" moves over the visible elements, so it's WYSIWYG. Fine, locally.

-- But now the actual issues I have:

The first issue arises from the present local behavior. The shift-arrow key functionality to expand a selection moves through the unfolded (open branch) children as well; it selects the next visible element which may either be a child or a successor. Yes, this is consistent with the non-qualified behavior, and it is also consistent with the shift-click range selection. I can see the intent.

But it serves no purpose. As far as I remember, I have never encountered a situation where I wanted to expand-select objects in that way. Either I want to select only the objects on one level - then the functionality should not select the children too. Or I want to select the children but not the parent. Or I want to select all the children recursively - for which there is a separate function, and the expand-select wouldn't work because it skips folded branches.

So, it may be consistent but it's useless. I want a different behavior, which I already have scripts for, but I can't assign them in the OM because the arrow keys are hardcoded.

The second issue is the fact that the OM arrow key behavior is local to the OM. You don't have the same arrow key functionality available in the viewport. You cannot recreate the default behavior in the viewport without scripting, because it is hardcoded on the OM and not available as function in the Customize Command window so you cannot assign it yourself globally. And even if you could, the OM behavior is based on the local properties of a specific OM (status of the folded branches) so it would make no sense.

Nevertheless, I like to have arrow keys available in the viewport. E.g. if you select an object by clicking, but you need the parent of that object instead, so you use arrow-left to get up in the hierarchy. (Sure, you can use the Ctrl-right click method but that works only for objects with a visual representation; it will e.g. show you an SDS but not a Symmetry parent or a Null parent.) Or: You want to select some siblings of the object you clicked; yes you can select them all by clicking but it's far easier by using shift-arrow up/down to expand the selection.

Now I scripted that behavior and assigned it in the viewport (global shortcut, actually), no problem. (I will release the 20 scripts for free on Gumroad shortly if you want to have a look what I'd like in functionality.) All is well...

...except of course that the scripted behavior does not extend to the OM, because there the keys are hardcoded, and the OM-specific functionality can neither be overridden nor removed. So I now have arrow keys that work differently depending on what window is active.

We can argue a lot about whether the arrow keys in the OM are more intuitive the way they are... and I might even agree, and limit myself to overwriting the useless shift-arrow key selection expansion, and add some Ctrl- and Alt- combinations for additional functionality. But I can't even do that! Because the hardcoded functions trigger even if Ctrl or Alt are pressed, and eat up the keystroke for themselves instead of calling the script with that qualifier. So, you cannot add ANY arrow key assignment to the OM. ARRRGGH!

Which brings me directly to the third issue, and I would even go so far as call it a bug. Ah feh, I'd call the 2nd issue a bug already.

Try assigning a global multi-key shortcut using an arrow key in the Customize Command window. This works, e.g. S~Right to select the child of the currently selected object (one of my scripts, but you can use any other command). Do it in the viewport. Null problemo, works fine. Do it in the OM. ...

... it gets weird after opening the tooltip that shows all the followup keys for this multi-key shortcut. Pressing the arrow key (although listed correctly in that tooltip shortcut list) triggers the OM's hardcoded functionality but does not close the tooltip. Pressing the arrow key again closes the tooltip, triggers the hardcoded functionality again, but leaves the internal keystroke system in a curious state, because when I try it again, I see the tooltip for S~S, which probably means that the system still remembers the S stroke from the previous time, and now adds it again.

sigh

Okay, it's something I can live with, at least it doesn't crash. But I don't see why the OM arrow keys are hardcoded at all, instead of working the same way any other functionality works with keyboard shortcuts. There doesn't seem to be anything special about them. (Yes, they use the current OM state but that should not be an issue for a Maxon programmer who has all the neat functions to determine the last used OM - which I don't have as the API doesn't reveal them.)

Cairyn

okay, I finally got around to put up the scripts to Gumroad. If you want to know exactly what functionalities I implemented there, you can read the description, they are listed one by one:
https://app.gumroad.com/cairyn
The scripts are free, so you can even download them just for giggles.
As described in the prior post, it is not possible to add any of these to the Object Manager while using arrow keys, not even with (theoretically unused) Ctrl- and Alt-combinations.

Manuel

@cairyn said in Overriding arrow keys in the Object Manager?:

I guess they didn't make the cut at all...)

Good guess, there's no particular reason for not being there.